Religious debate

Introducing religious debates…..

After watching the completely unfair debate on XGH last week, where RJM and I had to have a 2 on 25 debate with the skeptics, I’ve decided it’s just not fair. The blogosphere has got to settle down and have some fair, straightforward one on one debates. I’ve decided to host these debates on my blog. I’ll be featuring some 1 – one - 1 debates with me moderating. For our first debate, we’ll be having a debate between God and God.

EP: God, it’s our pleasure to have you here. I was wondering if we could talk about the parsha. Could you give us your thoughts about the meraglim?

God:
אִם-יִרְאוּ, אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר נִשְׁבַּעְתִּי, לַאֲבֹתָם; וְכָל-מְנַאֲצַי, לֹא יִרְאוּהָ. כד וְעַבְדִּי כָלֵב, עֵקֶב הָיְתָה רוּחַ אַחֶרֶת עִמּוֹ, וַיְמַלֵּא, אַחֲרָי--וַהֲבִיאֹתִיו, אֶל-הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר-בָּא שָׁמָּה, וְזַרְעוֹ, יוֹרִשֶׁנָּה.

EP: That’s terrible. Sounds like they were all pretty bad except for Kulev. God, how would you respond?

God:

אִם-אַתֶּם, תָּבֹאוּ אֶל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר נָשָׂאתִי אֶת-יָדִי, לְשַׁכֵּן אֶתְכֶם בָּהּ--כִּי אִם-כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה, וִיהוֹשֻׁעַ בִּן-נוּן

EP. So, you are saying both kulev and Yeshua were the good guys? Hmm, God, how would you respond to that?

God:

אִם-יִרְאֶה אִישׁ בָּאֲנָשִׁים הָאֵלֶּה, הַדּוֹר הָרָע הַזֶּה--אֵת, הָאָרֶץ הַטּוֹבָה, אֲשֶׁר נִשְׁבַּעְתִּי, לָתֵת לַאֲבֹתֵיכֶם. לו זוּלָתִי כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה, הוּא יִרְאֶנָּה, וְלוֹ-אֶתֵּן אֶת-הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר דָּרַךְ-בָּהּ, וּלְבָנָיו--יַעַן, אֲשֶׁר מִלֵּא אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה.

EP: Hmm, so you think just Kulev was the good guy. Let’s look at the actual sin and decide for ourself who were the good guys. God, which meraglim actually weren’t part of the sin?

God:

וַיַּהַס כָּלֵב אֶת-הָעָם, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה; וַיֹּאמֶר, עָלֹה נַעֲלֶה וְיָרַשְׁנוּ אֹתָהּ--כִּי-יָכוֹל נוּכַל, לָהּ. לא וְהָאֲנָשִׁים אֲשֶׁר-עָלוּ עִמּוֹ, אָמְרוּ, לֹא נוּכַל, לַעֲלוֹת אֶל-הָעָם: כִּי-חָזָק הוּא, מִמֶּנּוּ

EP: Oh, I see. So, it was only Kulev who was the good guy. God, how would you respond?

God:

וִיהוֹשֻׁעַ בִּן-נוּן, וְכָלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה, מִן-הַתָּרִים, אֶת-הָאָרֶץ--קָרְעוּ, בִּגְדֵיהֶם. ז וַיֹּאמְרוּ, אֶל-כָּל-עֲדַת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל לֵאמֹר: הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר עָבַרְנוּ בָהּ לָתוּר אֹתָהּ--טוֹבָה הָאָרֶץ, מְאֹד מְאֹד.

EP: Oh good point. We seem to be at an impasse. Let’s ask another person. Kulev perhaps. What do you have to say? Was Yehoshua also saved?

Kulev:
וַיִּגְּשׁוּ בְנֵי-יְהוּדָה אֶל-יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, בַּגִּלְגָּל, וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו, כָּלֵב בֶּן-יְפֻנֶּה הַקְּנִזִּי: אַתָּה יָדַעְתָּ אֶת-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה אִישׁ-הָאֱלֹהִים, עַל אֹדוֹתַי וְעַל אֹדוֹתֶיךָ--בְּקָדֵשׁ בַּרְנֵעַ. ז בֶּן-אַרְבָּעִים שָׁנָה אָנֹכִי, בִּשְׁלֹחַ מֹשֶׁה עֶבֶד-יְהוָה אֹתִי מִקָּדֵשׁ בַּרְנֵעַ--לְרַגֵּל אֶת-הָאָרֶץ; וָאָשֵׁב אֹתוֹ דָּבָר, כַּאֲשֶׁר עִם-לְבָבִי. ח וְאַחַי אֲשֶׁר עָלוּ עִמִּי, הִמְסִיו אֶת-לֵב הָעָם; וְאָנֹכִי מִלֵּאתִי, אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהָי. ט וַיִּשָּׁבַע מֹשֶׁה, בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא לֵאמֹר, אִם-לֹא הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר דָּרְכָה רַגְלְךָ בָּהּ, לְךָ תִהְיֶה לְנַחֲלָה וּלְבָנֶיךָ עַד-עוֹלָם: כִּי מִלֵּאתָ, אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהָי.

EP: Hmm.. that actualy just doesn’t make any sense. Well, we're just about our of time but join us next week for our next installment of religion debate: God vs the Rabbis.

Tzidkos Meter

Click to Enlarge.

Starting to Have Doubts

A few posts ago I gave my irrefutable 6 point proof of Orthodox Judaism. I stand by my proof and it is clearly logically sound. I’m just getting a little confused now because I have seen that some other religions also have proofs. Here’s Bill O'Reilly’s 3 point proof to Catholicism

(from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8etMHn4P6g)


1. Proof that God exists: the sun rises, the sun sets, the changing of the tides
2. Proof that Jesus is divine: “Jesus was a real guy”
3. Proof that Catholicism is the true religion:” it helps me as a person”

This frightens and confuses me. How can two contradictory religions have irrefutable proofs?

Guest Post From Rav Elchanan Wasserman

Click on the images to enlarge.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

My debate with my skeptic friend

Skeptic:

How could you say the Torah is a Divine book when it seems to be very wrong about the creation of the universe, the flood etc.

Me:

That you could ask such a question shows how puny is your intellect. What you do not understand is that Torah & Science are on different planes.

Skeptic:

What the Hell is that supposed to mean? What happened? Did the Big Bang happen or was Adam made from clay? These are two very different stories. If the Big Bang happened, then the creation story is wrong. It’s false. It’s not on a different plane.

Me:

Science is trying to figure out what is real and true. Religion is trying to figure out what has meaning.

Skeptic:

Then you admit religion is wrong.

Me:

No. It is on a different plane. The meaning plane.

Skeptic:

You are not making any sense. Look it. If I were to go back 10,000 years. Were there or were there not people there? If those people existed, isn’t the Torah wrong when it says Adam was created from clay.

Me:

The answer to your question depends on which plane you visited. The “meaning plane” is at a 37 degree angle from the “what actually happened plane.” Two planes in a 3 dimensional topology at 37 degree angles would only intercept in one line. As any child knows, the Ruv spoke about Adam I and Adam II and there are actually two universes. There are two emunahpshutas and two Earths. One on each plane. They only intercept over one line.

Skeptic:

Ok, so what about at that point of interception?

Me:

That corresponds to the one detail the Torah got right.

Skeptic:

And which was that?

Me:

Hmm….. I can’t think of any at the moment. But I’m sure there is at least one. God isn’t that stupid.

Skeptic:

That’s is ridiculous. I give up. I’m out a here.

Ad Kan.

And, there you have it. Once again, I have bested a skeptic in a debate and forced him to run away.

Response to Richard Dawkins

Response to Richard Dawkins

One time I heard a video on youtube* by Richard Dawkins.** Dawkins said religion is an “accident of geography.” What did he mean by that? Basically, the idea is that almost everyone in the world thinks their parents have the right religion. It would be a most remarkable coincidence if this was by chance. The more likely explanation is that people are following in their paths of indoctrination. Thus, Dawkins would say, that I, a Jew of Jewish parents only believe in Judaism because I was born to Jewish parents.

Nice try Dawkins, but not so fast!!

Dawkins violates a key epistemological ontology by inferring a metaphysical tautology.

In other words, Dawkins is right when he considers religions in general, but it would be a false jump of logic to conclude that that is true of Judaism as well.

Here’s the way I see it. Judaism is the right religion. There is evidence to support it. Jews also raise their kids to be critical, thinking people. Most Jews therefore go to university and take courses in comparative religion, evolution, archeology, philosophy, biblical criticism, cosmology, and history and carefully consider all the evidence. They correctly conclude that Judaism is the right religion. The people that are biased towards their parents’ point of view are everyone else in the world. So, Dawkins would ask, is it coincidence that all the non biased people happen to be those people with Jewish parents? Not at all! It is the Jewish system of fair rational logic that we bring up our children with that imbues them with a sense of intellectual honesty. In short, we are not biased, but everyone else is.
Besides, Jacob Stein converted.
Vehal lehavin

* 21st century yetzer hurrah box
** On my neighbor’s computer

Unquestionable Proof of the Torah

The 6 point method:

It would seem to me that one can easily prove the Torah is divine in 6 simple irrefutable steps:

1. The universe must have a creator. How else did it get here?
2. The creator must have wanted humans to know about him – why else would he have created the world?
3. That revelation must have been through miracles, so it follows one of the world religions is accurate
4. Non monotheistic religions are stupid, so either Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is the right religion
5. Islam and Christianity are corruptions of Judaism, so Judaism is the right religion
6. OJ is authentic Judaism.

Vekal Lehavin.